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Abortion Semantics
Ravings from the Frothy Middle |
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posted by: question (reply) post date: 07.29.04 (9:13 am) I think that it is weird how some call themselves pro-life, and think that being anti abortion is the definition of pro-life. These same folks vote for and support a president who oversaw about 150 executions, sent troops to die in a war, oversaw the killing of over 20,000 civilians, men women(and their fetuses) and children. I think that pro-life should mean pro-life all life. posted by: littlemrmahatma (reply) post date: 07.29.04 (9:18 am) Just part of their hypocrisy that they comfortably live with each day but then again logic was never their forte. They prefer massive firepower - even in a compassionate sense. posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 07.29.04 (10:49 am) There is a difference between "human life" and a "person," as Ron Reagan so elegantly explained. A piece of snot is "human life." posted by: GreenEyedGrrl (reply) post date: 07.29.04 (4:03 pm) I have yet to hear from a pro-lifer an answer to the question of why abortion is not murder in the case of rape or incest. If abortion is murder --without question --regardless of trimester, what difference can paternity possibly make in deciding whether or not it's a human life? posted by: bigredhead (reply) post date: 07.29.04 (7:58 pm) Reply to: littlemrmahatma You said: "Kind of like the Commandment "Thou shall not kill" from the voice of God, the Right has plenty of exceptions to that." Unfortunately, you misquoted the command. In Exodus 20:13 of my NIV Bible, it says "You shall not murder." We do not claim any exceptions for murder, including abortion. By the way, I do say that any deliberation abortion is murder. You also claim "You must have both living sperm and a viable egg. Is that enough? No, you must also have an appropriate environment. A test tube is initially viable but really you need a willing female whose body can handle the process." So you are claiming that since a fetus must have a female body for it to live, it is not a live and abortion is therefore not murder. What about a 4 week old baby boy. This baby must have some to feed him and take care of him. Someone to to make sure he is not exposed to an adverse environment. He cannot live without a parent. He will never grow into adult on his own. So he must not be alive either. If his mother took him to a dumpster and placed him in there and he died, that would not be murder. Is that correct? posted by: littlemrmahatma (reply) post date: 07.30.04 (7:07 am) Quoting from the Bible is always subject to which translation you refer to, and the original authors may not have captured the details correctly so even "Thou shalt not murder" is suspect. The difference between a fetus which cannot survive at all without a host (female body) versus a 4-week old baby which can survive with a variety of hosts (foster parents, relatives, parents) is a poor comparison. My argument was about viability. A fetus needs a female body to continue the process of development until viability. A baby is already viable and can survive outside of the mother's body. The fetus though is still a part of the mother - attached and utterly dependent. The baby is also dependent but not attached. Ignoring the baby until it died is murder. Ignoring the fetus would mean ignoring the mother and that's not murder - it's suicide. Is that correct? posted by: bigredhead (reply) post date: 07.30.04 (7:32 am) Reply to: littlemrmahatma I fail to see how there is a difference between the two. How does the number of "hosts" make a difference on whether or not it is murder. There are plenty of premature babies that are born and survive outside of the mother's body. However, these babies can be killed by abortion if they are not born prematurely. Besides that, what difference does it make if one or more "hosts" can provide a means for survival. Either one, given a proper environment, can grow up to be an adult who will play an important role in our society. posted by: littlemrmahatma (reply) post date: 07.30.04 (8:36 am) Try raising a fetus without a mother. Can't be done...yet...which was my point about when technology makes the means available to raise a fetus without relying on a human host, the issue of abortion becomes moot, though raising a mess of other issues. You have a good point about those premature babies that could be killed by abortion. Would you agree then that viability would be a better test for abortion limits than simply claiming that abortion is murder? posted by: bigredhead (reply) post date: 07.30.04 (10:51 am) Reply to: littlemrmahatma I looked up the definition of viability. These are some of the definitions I found along with the links to where I found them: Capability of living, developing or germinating under favorable conditions https://www.sitesalive.com/admin/glossary/sectV.html survivability, having the capability to survive in a form that can develop, live, and reproduce in a normal fashion www.thoughtfultech.com/MMTS/nsfgloss.html The potential to exist successfully or survive. www.cartoplus.co.uk/oxford_demo/text/glossary.htm capable of become practical and useful www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn Based on these definitions, I would consider viability a reasonable (in your words) "test for abortion limits". However, according to these definitions, viability would exist at conception. I do not believe that is your definition of viability. As to your comment: "Quoting from the Bible is always subject to which translation you refer to". Can you give me which translations use the word kill instead of murder? posted by: littlemrmahatma (reply) post date: 07.30.04 (11:25 am) "Thou shalt not kill" - links on interpretations and translations - which one is more valid than another is a matter of opinion: King James Version - http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/text.html#c20 http://www.thenazareneway.com/thou_shalt_not_kill.htm http://members.tripod.com/jbrooks2/THOU_SHALT_NOT_KILL.html That's enough of those. Viability does not exist for the fetus at conception without the female host - the two are inseperable. There is a gap between early sustainability in a test tube and later survivability given a pre-mature birth. This gap can only (for now) be fulfilled by a female host. For a woman who has been raped and impregnated, for her to have to - by law - carry out the pregnancy at her own risk to life and imposition to lifestyle, to deny her the choice of terminating the unwanted pregnancy is barbaric. And if exception is acceptable, why not extend the choice to other circumstances? Finally, in our culture where life is seemingly so sacred we seem to have no problems sending millions of unwanted cats and dogs to "sleep", raising and slaughtering millions of cattle for McBurgers, fishing... They are as alive as we are yet we have no problems killing them. We have Government sponsored killing sprees called wars but no problems if they're "justified" (and we're winning). But we have problems terminating a pregnancy, terminating a fetus that is dependent on a female and may be unwanted...it's inconsistent, it's hypocritical. posted by: bigredhead (reply) post date: 07.30.04 (9:07 pm) Reply to: littlemrmahatma John Wesley explains this better than I do: http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.asp?ViewCommentary=Exodus+20&Version=WES But you are really arguing this point only to divert from the real argument. If you agreed that a fetus was a living being even you would not disagree that abortion is murder. Do you not agree that murder is wrong? As to your point about killing animals. Are you honestly going to try and argue that the life of an animal is just as important as the life of a human? If you want to call pro-lifers hypocritcial for believing in war, then it is just a legitimate for me to call you hypocritical for having a problem with war but not abortion. posted by: littlemrmahatma (reply) post date: 08.02.04 (7:23 am) I agree that murder is wrong but perhaps the real question is "Can murder be justified?" And the answer is occassionally, like the examples I posed. Do you agree with that, or is murder *never* justifiable (which means you'd be anti-war among other qualities)? Why isn't a life of an animal as equal to the life of a human? Though they may not plot and have imaginations like humans, are they not living as well? Just because we have the capability to destroy them more easily than they can destroy us doesn't give us superiority over them, or does "Might make Right" apply here too? And you're correct. Arguably the hypocrisy extends to both sides - something neither side admits much less recognizes. That I can live with abortion but not war has multiple parts. Frankly I don't see fetuses as beings...yet. They can't survive without the mother host and given a choice between the two as to whom has more rights, I side with the mother. It is her body, not yours, not mine, not the Governments. Since the fetus is a part of her how can it be murder to have it removed? But this is where viability kicks in. If the "thing" is viable, you could argue murder but if it isn't viable what is it? War, I find, is rarely justified and is but little more than state-sponsored murder. That the Government could impose a draft, take my kids, and put them in a situation where they're likely to get killed is abhorrent. That the Government could do something like Iraq - invade under false pretenses - with 800+ killed, 13000+ injured is criminal. I don't understand how anyone can be vehemently anti-abortion and pro-war, especially if life is considered so sacred. [This is not an attack on you personally. I know some folks who hold these positions. It just amazes me.] posted by: bigredhead (reply) post date: 08.03.04 (11:11 am) Reply to: littlemrmahatma I'm not sure which examples you are referring to. However, I believe murder, by definition, is never justifiable. I believe the murder to be a needless and unjustifiable death of a human caused by the caused by another human being who intended harm or death. But I don't think we would agree on this meaning. First of all, I do believe that war is a horrible thing. I hate to see people die in a war. However, I do believe that war can be necessary to save lives or protect freedoms. And I think if you reveiw the history of our country you find that there are very few wars that we entered that did not serve to protect lives or freedom. Some people may have disagreed about how successful we were in protecting these things, but I believe that the intent of our leaders has almost always been a justifiable cause. Since you brought it up, lets use the war in Iraq for an example. We can argue til we're blue in the face about whether or not there are WMD's and whether or not intelligence was tainted. But I honestly believe that President Bush took the country to war in Iraq to save lives. Sometimes we must lose lives to save them. Its an agonizing paradox. You may even argue with me that the war is not making us safer, but I believe that was the purpose of the war even if it is not. (I would say the war is making us safer by the way.) You argued that 800+ lives have been lost. That is a terrible and tragic loss. However, there were 3000+ lives lost on September 11. We were not at war, at least as far as we knew. That was all in one day. Therefore, I consider 800+ lives sacrificed in over a year, much better than 3000+ lives lost in a day. That could happen again multiple times if we do not aggressively act against terrorism. Therefore, I see war as sometimes necessary but nonetheless tragic. I will address your other points in my next post. posted by: bigredhead (reply) post date: 08.03.04 (11:36 am) Reply to: littlemrmahatma "Frankly I don't see fetuses as beings...yet. They can't survive without the mother host..." You keep saying this, but I do not see any logic in this statement. This is merely an opinion. I do not see how you can back this up with any facts. The fetus is a growing organism (for your sake I won't refer to it as a being). Without any kind of intervention, either natural or human, it will continue to grow and develop both in the womb and after it is born. I simply do not see any logical basis for claiming that it is not alive just because it is dependent on its mother. "given a choice between the two as to whom has more rights, I side with the mother. It is her body..." I find it interesting that you used the word mother here. The role of a mother is typically considered to care for her children and protect them no matter what the cost. That means a mother would even die for her child. Now I don't really want to get into the issue about a pregnancy that would endanger a mother's life, because that is whole different can of worms. My point is that most mother I know are generally more concerned about their children's lives than their own. As for the issue of rights. I do not believe that either the mother or the child has more rights. Both should have the equal right to live. A fetus is not part of a woman's body. It is growing inside her body and sustained by her body, but it is not part of her body. Besides, if the issue was about women cutting off their arms, would you argue "its her body and she can do what she wants"? If you saw someone trying to harm a part of their body would you not try and stop them and them have them committed to a mental institution or at least get treatment? So I don't see how the "its her body" argument holds up either. I can go into my beliefs about humans and animals if you want me to, but I think that distracts from the real issue. posted by: littlemrmahatma (reply) post date: 08.04.04 (7:36 am) (I'm responding to two posts here) Equating the 800 lives lost in Iraq to the 3000 due to 9/11 is not an argument for the invasion of Iraq - there was no link between the two, which is why I continually blog about how Bush blew it by changing directions away from bin Laden to go after Hussein. Hussein may be killing his own people but there are *MANY* other countries in the same positions and we're doing nothing. Why is Iraq so special then? No WMDs, no links to al Qaeda, no links to 9/11, no threat to the U.S. - why did Iraq get the favor of an invasion? Faulty intelligence aside, it looked like Bush wanted to go into Iraq and sought an excuse - ANY excuse - to invade. Why? Because Hussein was bad? Bullshit! What about Cuba, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran... They're all guilty of worse things than what Hussein did. And along those lines...we go into Iraq claiming the reasons we did, and kill a variety of people. It's not murder - it's justified. Ooops, our reasons weren't as valid as we thought. Does Bush go on trial for murder? [No, because at the time - he can claim - the justifications were valid BUT what a defense for anybody. I killed someone because AT THE TIME I thoght my justification was valid...] "Without any kind of intervention, either natural or human, it will continue to grow and develop both in the womb and after it is born. I simply do not see any logical basis for claiming that it is not alive just because it is dependent on its mother." Two things - it needs a womb and if the owner of the womb does not want the fetus? Second, I never said the fetus wasn't alive, I argued that it's alive as are the egg and sperm that created it. Why do you start the measure of life at "creation"? "The role of a mother is typically considered to care for her children and protect them no matter what the cost. That means a mother would even die for her child." Except that many women want abortion as a choice which draws doubt on your hypotheses here. Perhaps because a fetus isn't perceived quite the same as a baby. How many women would die for a fetus? "A fetus is not part of a woman's body. It is growing inside her body and sustained by her body, but it is not part of her body." Say what? A fetus sure is a part of her body. It's attached by the umbilical cord - how can it be sustained otherwise? [Silly aside: Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?] As for self-mutilation, it's a choice and usually not one worth confining people to institutions for or getting counseling. But don't get me started on forced circumcisions... |
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